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Birth:          1135 Clun, Shropshire, England
Death:          ABT 1199 

Notes
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I20757
Isabel (married 2nd c1166 Geoffrey de Vere, married 3rd c1188 William Boterel, died 
c1199), daughter and heir of Ingram de Say, feudal Lord of Clun, Salop. [Burke's 
Peerage]

---------------------------------------

The following is copied from the website, maintained by Chris Phillips, entitled: "Some 
corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage":

Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say, and married the first William 
FitzAlan (d. 1160), not his son William, who died in 1210. Their son and heir William 
died about Easter, 1215. For a fuller account, see below. 

Eyton, in Antiquities of Shropshire [vol.7, pp.211-253 and elsewhere; 1853-60], gave a 
very detailed account of the early FitzAlans. In the reference cited above, J.H. Round 
corrected the early part of Eyton's work, dealing with Alan FitzFleald's ancestry. 
However, for the following generations, Eyton's account remains both fuller and more 
accurate than later work [cf. Sanders, English Baronies, pp.70, 71, 124, 391, 392 
(1960); Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, pp.515, 680, 860 (2002)]. 

In the following summary, I have included references to source material only for points 
omitted or contradicted by the later writers (and in one case for an addition to Eyton's 
account). 

1. Alan FitzFleald, who married Aveline de Hesding. 

2. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who married 1stly Christiana, neptis (niece or 
kinswoman) of Robert Earl of Gloucester, and 2ndly Isabel, daughter and heir of Elias 
de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century 
narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, 
p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. After William's death in 1160, Isabel remarried, 
before 1166, to Geoffrey de Vere (d. 1170) and, before 1188, to William Boterel; she 
died probably in 1199, and was survived by her third husband. 

3. William FitzAlan, the son and heir of William by Isabel, who succeeded as a minor 
and apparently came of age in 1175. He married a daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Lord of 
Meath [Rot. Hundredorum, vol.2, pp.69, 76, 80, referring to land given to William 
FitzAlan with the sister of Walter de Lacy, cited by Eyton, vol.5, p.86, vol.10, p.126] 
and died in 1210 [Eyton, vol.7, p.244 citing the Annals of Dunstaple Priory; since 
printed in Annales Monastici, vol.3 (Rolls Series no 36; 1866)]. 

4. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who succeeded as a minor, married Mary, the 
daughter of Thomas de Erdington, and died without issue, Easter 1215 [Eyton, vol.10, 
p.326, citing a copy of a letter from Thomas de Erdington to the king, referring to 
William's death at Easter and dated by Eyton to 1215 on internal evidence (Vincent's 
Collections, vol.3, p.98, College of Arms)]. Mary remarried to William de Duston, and 
both were living June 1220 [Curia Regis Rolls, vol.9, p.57]. 

5. John FitzAlan, his brother and heir, as given above.

(Note that Sanders gave an alternative reconstruction, in which the second William 
FitzAlan died 1212-1213 and was the grandfather, not the father, of William (d. 1215) 
and his brother John. But this is shown to be incorrect by the statement of a jury in 
1223 that John FitzAlan's father, William, had been a minor in the custody of Henry II 
[Curia Regis Rolls, vol.11, p.69].)

[The error concerning the identity of the William FitzAlan who married Isabel de Say, 
and much of the evidence presented by Eyton, were pointed out by Joe Cochoit in 
April 2002. Peter Stewart pointed out the disagreement between Eyton's and 
Sanders's reconstructions in May 2002. Thanks to Cris Nash, Ian Fettes, Leo van de 
Pas, Rosie Bevan and Robert S. Baxter for many other helpful contributions during the 
ensuing discussion.] 

---------------------------------------

Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann AT yahoo.com, in a post-em, wrote:

It appears the name of her father was Ellis/Elias/Helias de SAY/SAYE & not 
Ingram/Ingelram:

(Ellis de Say) whose da. and h., Isabel, brought it (the Lordship of Clun in Shropshire) 
to her husband, William FitzAlan [Ref: CP II:335 as corrected by CP XIV]

In CP V:391 it states "...Isabel, da. and h. of Ingram de Say..."
Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say... Isabel, daughter and heir of 
Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-
century narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, 
Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. [Ref: Some corrections and 
additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: 
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

As I have noted, after 1160, Guy le Strange, Sheriff of Shropshire was appointed to 
administer the Fitz Alan estates and Eyton gives many examples of entries by him with 
regard to these estates. In 1165, Geoffrey de Vere married Isabel de say and became 
lord of Clun in her right. This is recorded in the Liber Niger and numerous financial 
entries. Her third husband, William Boterell, would also become Baron of Clun in her 
right. William II Fitz Alan (her son) is not recorded with regard to Clun until 1203, after 
her death. She actually died in 1199 so presumably William FA (FITZALAN) was baron 
of Clun from 1199-1210.

Beginning in 1166, Geoffrey de Vere began receiving income from the Fitz Alan 
estates. This continues until 1170 when Eyton notes "Geoffrey de Vere died; but 
credit is taken for his full annuity out of the Fitz Alan estates up to Michaelmas. The 
word habuit is however used instead of the word habet in respect of the lands which 
had furnished the said annuity and which he had ceased to hold."

All this clearly shows that Isabel de Say, Lady of Clun married Geoffrey de Vere and 
that she is the same as the Isabel de Say who married William Fitz Alan (d. 1160). 
[Ref: Joe Cochoit message to soc.genealogy.medieval 19 May 2002]

Isabel Say, daughter and heir of Helias de Say, Lady of Clun, niece of Robert Say, 
Earl of Gloucester. [Ref: The Ancestors of Homer Beers James: 

married 1st: William FITZALAN (no date given) [Ref: CP V:392, Holloway p10, Watney 
p391]
(Holloway = "The Genealogy of Mary Wentworth, Who Became the Wife of William 
Brewster" by Naomi D. Holloway 1969 LDS Film 1738313)

married 2nd: Geoffrey de VERE before 1166 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to 
the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: 
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

married 3rd: William BOTEREL before 1188 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to 
the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: 
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

she died probably in 1199 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete 
Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: 
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

Regards,
Curt

Parents
DE SAY (SAYE) Elias (ABT 1111 - BEF 1166)
----- ----- ()

Siblings
DE SAY Isabel (1135 - ABT 1199)

Marriage To FITZ ALAN William (ABT 1105 - 1160)
    m.  

Notes

Parents
FITZ FLAALD Alan (1078 - AFT 1121)
DE HESDIN Avelina (1081 - )

Children by FITZ ALAN William ABT 1105 - 1160
FITZ ALAN William (ABT 1154 - 1210)
FITZ ALAN DE EATON Robert (ABT 1158 - )

Marriage To DE BOTREAUX William (ABT 1135 - 1209)
    m.  

Notes

Parents
DE BOTREAUX William (ABT 1119 - BEF 1175)
DE CORBET Alice (ABT 1100 - BEF 1149)

Children by DE BOTREAUX William ABT 1135 - 1209
DE BOTREAUX Emma (ABT 1175 - )

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